right there with ya on that comment. Roy Williams is more talented, and he is a "playmaker". With the Martz offense, this guy could simply explode this year.

I don't buy this more talented bull shit.....AJ is bigger, stronger, and faster.....Hands I may give to Roy by a nose, but while he makes the unbelievable catches, he drops some easy one, and neither are great route runners. I just am not buying the more talented part.

you will be after 2006

It bears itself out in the statistics. When on the field, Roy does more. His PPG over his career is significantly higher. Andre has 354 points in 45 games - 7.8 PPG. Roy has 247 points in 27 games - 9.1 PPG.

I don't know where you get the stronger and faster stuff either - Roy ran a sub 4.4 40, just like Andre did. And if you have any questions on his strength, I can shoot you a few videos where he is throwing DB's off of him as if they are rag dolls.

I stick to the bigger faster stronger statement. Roy is fast, but not AJ fast. Roy is also not as strong as AJ, period! And stats don't always tell the whole story, I can point out a lot of guys who have more pts then either one over the last 2-3 years and are not as talented.....

Talent is just that, doesn't always mean you will excel, just means you have the talent to do so, you still have to add a lot of other variables to it. Both of these WR's are extremely talented, yet for one reason or another they have not produced to their talent levels. To simply state:
is simply a cop out and something that is not true. May be of equal talent, but he's not more talented. And neither has performed opn the field to their talent level, so I really don't care who has under performed more, they both need to step it up, so it comes down to who you think will. For you it's Roy, for me it's AJ. That's fine, just don't cop out of the argument by saying he's more talented......just simply not the case.

If you're going to say that size and speed = talent, then you might as well say that Calico is as talented as both of them.

Roy gets it done when he is on the field, period. AJ is merely above average the vast majority of times that he's on the field. And that's the bottom line.

And no, you aren't going to find a whole lot of guys doing more than 9.1 PPG. There just aren't a lot. There are a ton of guys that do 7.8 though. The difference is just massive. For comparison's sake, Larry Fitzgerald is at 10.3. There is a greater difference between Roy and Andre than there is between Larry and Roy.

the problem is Roy isn't getting the job done the vast majority of the time..... The fact you own him, doesn't automatically mean he gets the job done. The guy was a HUGE disappontment last year, he averaged 3.5 rec a game, and just over 50 yds a game, that is simply not getting it done. So saying he has produced on the field is flat out wrong, just like if you said AJ had produced on the field, you'd be flat out wrong.

You can talk about potential all you want with these guys, but sorry, the minute you say someone has produced on the field, yet he only averages 3.7 rec a game over the last 2 years, your gonna get a disagreement from me!

Here are some young WR's that have actually out produced Williams per game averages in their carears:
Roy Williams - 3.7 rpg - 56 ypg

Boldin - 6.5 rpg - 85 ypg
Burress - 3.9 rpg - 62 ypg
Chambers - 4.0 rpg - 59 ypg
Coles - 4.4 rpg - 59 ypg
Fitzgerald - 5.9 rpg - 68 ypg
Holt - 5.6 rpg - 86 ypg
Harrison - 6 rpg - 80 ypg
D. Jackson - 4.6 rpg - 66 ypg
Andre Johnson - 4.6 rpg - 62 ypg
C. Johnson - 4.9 rpg - 73 ypg
Key Johnson - 4.9 rpg - 65 ypg
McCardell - 4.6 rpg - 58 ypg
R. Moss - 5.1 rpg - 81 ypg
Muhammad - 4.6 rpg - 61 ypg
Owens - 5 rpg - 74 ypg
R. Smith - 4.8 rpg - 65 ypg
S, Smith - 4.1 rpg - 60 ypg
Ward - 4.5 rpg - 55 ypg

That is a long list, of young, old, superstars, and just descent.....and yes the list INCLUDES ANDRE JOHNSON!!! (not saying that is the complete list either) I know your argument is going to be I agnored the TD factopr with, no I didn't, I just concentrated on the 2 most realiable stats when it comes to finding a producing WR, receptions and yards!! If they consistently catch the ball and make yds, TD's will come more often then not.

So do you care to bore me again with how "productive" Roy has been????

TD's don't just "come more often than not". Jimmy Smith, Rod Smith, Keenan McCardell, and plenty of other guys have been yardage machines while not being very productive on the TD end of things.

When Roy is catching 40 yards and a TD and Andre is getting 60 yards, the guy owning Roy is walking away with 4 more fantasy points. And on average, the guy owning Roy will get 1.3 more fantasy points every game than the guy owning Andre.

Roy is simply more productive as a fantasy receiver, there is no way to spin it otherwise.

And to show how well your theory of "once the catches and yards come, the TD's come" holds up, here's the number of times the WR's on your list have hit or eclipsed 8 TD's. Something Roy has done in both of his injury shortened seasons:

Boldin (1/3) - Hit 8 his rookie year in a full 16 games
Burress (0/6) - Has never done it
Chambers (2/5) - Twice
Coles (0/6) - Never done it
Fitzgerald (2/2) - Both season hit or tied
Holt (3/7) - Has started to hit it in his last 3 seasons.
Harrison, (8/10) - Hits it routinely.
Jackson (2/6) - 33% isn't too great
Johnson (0/3) - Has never hit
C Johnson (3/5) - Hit the last 3, but only has a career high of 10.
Key Johnson (4/10) - Hit 8 a few times early in his career, and 10 once. Hasn't hit 8 since 2000.
McCardell (2/14) - hit it once in Tampa and last year in San Diego
Moss (7/8) - Hits routinely
Muhammed (2/10) - Twice in a 10 year career.
Owens (7/10) - Routine
R Smith (3/11) - 3 times in 11 seasons
S Smith (1/5) - Once in 5 seasons
H Ward (3/8) - 3 times in 8 seasons
Jimmy Smith (3/13) - 3 in 13

If anything, your numbers show that the true studs are the ones that catch these TD's on a frequent basis. The guys that don't catch the TD's as regularly (like Andre Johnson) are the ones that are hit and miss depending on the season.

Burress has never had an elite season, nor has Coles. Neither has had big TD numbers ever. Holt has become known as far more of a stud these past few years as he has experienced TD success. D Jackson has always been considered a very non sexy borderline #1 guy. Because he doesn't get those TD's regularly. McCardell was never a top level guy, always a #2 - the only season he was really at a stud level was his season in Tampa where, sure enough, he caught 8 TD's. Keyshawn was considered a stud early in his career....while he was racking up TD's. Lately he doesn't get them and isn't considered much of anything anymore. Rod Smith has always been solid, but only elite a couple of years. The years where he actually hit stud level were the couple where he did get unusually high TD's for himself. And on and on.

The TD numbers really are what show that Roy has more potential to be an elite WR. Plenty of guys can catch 1200 yards - it is the guys that can add 10 TD's to that like Chad Johnson that hit stud level.

And Andre simply hasn't shown that ability.

But TD's by themsleves do not make Roy a "STUD", his 8 TD's a year means he has the "potential" to be a stud, while his overall "performance" has lacked behind the others. I'm not disagreeing his fantasy numbers look better b/c he has shown a knack for getting in the endzone. What I am saying is your comment about that he has already been a productive WR is false. He has not been. He has shown potential, and until he picks up the other 2 HUGE asp[ects of his game, receptions and yards, he will always be a "potential" guy.

Like I said, I thinhk AJ has failed similarily in his first 3 years. That is why you simply can't use the argument that either one has been more productive on the field, they both have under achieved. Raoy maybe has been slightly more productive in a fantasy score sheet, but less receptions, and less yards, while scoring more TD's is not what I call more productive when I am trying to gauge the probability of one of these guys "breaking out."

I never said that Roy has played up to stud level or was productive at a stud level. I said that he was more productive whenever he was on the field than Andre Johnson. 1/3 of a TD more per game while only getting 6 yards less IS more productive. Any NFL team or any fantasy team would agree.

And your stuff about overall performance is entirely BS - how can you call receptions and yards while throwing TD's entirely out the window "overall" anything is beyond me. Last I checked, WR's were awarded points both in fantasy and in the NFL for getting into the end zone. It's a lame argument that's suited to throw the strongest aspects of Roy's overall performance out the window.

No matter how you want to spin it, that's the bottom line. Roy hasn't played up to a stud level yet, but he's been a heck of a lot closer than Andre Johnson.

I can just see you now arguing about how Randy Moss is behind Torry Holt in overall performance because so many of Randy's points are TD based while Holt is the yardage king. Nevermind the fact that Randy kills him in TD's and scores more points as a result, he's not the overall performer that Holt is because he gets 5 less yards a game.

lol, were just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Less yards, less catches, yet more TD's....how is that Better performance??? Seriously?

My aregument is not about who has been more productive, b/c as I have sdaid all along is they both have under performed.....so talking about who has under performed the least is pointl;ess. it comes down to who has the more potential, and it's a matter of preference I guess. At this point, the low TD's of AJ is not as much of a concern for me as the lack of catches and yards for Roy. But that is me. You obviously love the TD potential of Roy, and are willing to take the chance he can pick up the catches and yards. I'm willing to gable that AJ will increase the TD production as the rest of the offense impoves around him.

It's not I dislike Roy, I actually have these two ranked very similar in both re-draft and dynasty. I just still do not buy the more talented and more productive comment.......but obviously your not convincing me and I'm not convincing you....so much like most of our arguments, we'll just have to let it play out on the field.

6 less yards a game and 1/3 of a TD more per game. 18 yards is not as good as a TD. Not in fantasy, not in the NFL. How is that not better performance? Seriously.

You say that all you need to worry about with Andre is his TD's getting better - no, you need to worry about both his yardage and TD's getting better. 62 yards per game is only 6 yards per game better than Roy and still puts him on pace for under 1K. He needs to improve both yardage AND TD's, while all Roy needs is a couple more catches.

Roy Dub over johnson
Williams has better hands, johnson may have some other things on him with the exception of TD's , but Roy catches the ball like it ain't no thing.

That is 11 receptions and almost 100 yds over a season, that is pretty significant......