Average Draft Position - 4.06

2006 Stats (13 games played, 13 starts)

• Receiving - 42 Receptions, 553 Yards, 3 Touchdowns

Fire - Da Bomb
Ice - Phicinfan

"Da Bomb" provides our "Fire" for New England Patriots Wide Receiver, Randy Moss

Randy Moss - Fire

Let's keep this simple. Randy Moss is a great pick in the early to mid 4th, and I have five facts to prove it.

Fact - Randy Moss has never played with this good of a QB before.

Everyone knows Culpepper was never comprable to Brady as a QB, but it gets much worse from there. Look at the list of QBs Moss has played significant time with during his career: Aaron Brooks, Andrew Walter, Kerry Collins, Gus Frerotte, Todd Bouman, Spurgeon Wynn, Jeff George, Randall Cunningham, and Brad Johnson. Tom Brady has the football skills, knowledge, and chutzpah of all of those QBs combined. We don't know what Moss can do with a superstar QB.

Fact - Tom Brady has never played with this good of a WR before.

Look at the list of WRs who quality as Brady's top receiver at year's end during his career this far: Reche Caldwell, Deion Branch, David Patten, David Givens, and Troy Brown. Randy Moss is faster, bigger, stronger, and has better hands than every player on that list by far. We don't know what Brady can do with a superstar WR.

Fact - New England has a history of taking a shot at troubled players and making it work.

First it was Rodney Harrison who went from a guy no one in the league wanted to the catalyst of one of the top Ds and an eventual Super Bowl champ. Then it was castoff Corey Dillon who was a headcase and a trouble maker, and an inconsistent fantasy player as well. All he did was score 13 TDs in each of the past three years, plus over 1700 combined yards his first year as a Patriot. And don't forget, that was coming off a season of 541 rushing yards and 2 TDs as a Bengal in a season where pretty much everyone had given up on him. And oh yeah, before Dillon, the Pats had never had a stud RB before so people didn't know if it could happen. Sound familiar?

Fact - Randy Moss has consistently been a far better player on artificial turf than grass, and he plays 15 of 16 games on turf this season.

Moss was always far better at home or in a road dome with Minnesota, and he just about always struggled when he played on grass. The grass just took away that extra step of speed and separation. The last two years Moss toiled in Oakland and played all of his home games and about half his road games on grass. This year, for instance, the Raiders have 15 of their 16 games on grass. The Patriots have 15 of their 16 on turf, most of any team in the league. That means an extra bounce in his step for Moss, and if you remember seeing him play at home in Minnesota, you'll know better than to overlook it.

Fact - Randy Moss is being drafted in the early to mid 4th as the 13th-15th WR off the board. So all he has to do to merit your pick is be at least the 15th best WR.

And this is something that Moss pretty much always does, other than last year of course. Even in the two previous years where Moss struggled mightily, he finished ranked 15th and 19th in what were considered terrible fantasy years for him, missing games in both seasons. The average #15 WR in recent years has about 150 points. That's 1000 yards and 8 TDs. Unless Moss misses significant time this season, are you really expecting much less than those numbers? And do you not admit that he has the potential to blow them out of the water?

What is not to like here? The downside for Moss is to finish about 15th among WRs -- right where you are drafting him. The upside? Moss's rank before the years mentioned was 1, 5, 5, 1, 2, 1.

So you have a WR who can finish as low as 15th or 20th and as high as 1st. Remind me again why he's not an awesome 4th round pick?

"Phicinfan" provides our "Ice" for New England Patriots Wide Receiver, Randy Moss

Some glaring numbers the last two years are one reason i am Ice on Randy Moss.

First last years numbers: 13 games, 42 receptions, 553 yards, 3 Tds

Not very spectacular for an all everything Wr. But that was due to the Qb situation....right? Well how about 2005?
16 games, 60 receptions, 1005 yards and only 8Tds
Again, not spectucular...not "Randy Moss"
2004? 13 games, 49 receptions, 767 yds, 13Tds. Could have been a "Randy" year..but he missed 3 games.

Two other numbers that scares me with Randy. 30 and 10. He is 30yrs old and has 10 years in the league. That scares me for one big reason. Randy was never a route receiver. No, he was a run faster than all, or jump higher than all type receiver. Undisciplined...but extremely talented. Unfortunately, as you get older, you lose that. I don't see Randy pulling a Jerry Rice and learning to out guile Dbs. He isn't made that way.

My other concern is the team he has joined. New England is based on....no, prides itself on the fact that they don't have a superstar. It is a team made from a team. Everyone does their share, no one more important. They love to get all involved, and spread the ball around. I simply don't see them using a "Randy" ratio, or for that matter focussing on Randy. That isn't them.

Add in the team, the age, the years...and the known lack of effort at times...and I simply don't see wasting a high draft pick on Randy. I will add, he already is having leg issues with sore hammys in camp. To me another bad sign.

If I can get him in the 10th round or later....that is different. I will gamble at #3 or #4 wr. But certainly no earlier than that....if at all.

Couple of things. Culpepper has (or had at the time) a helluva arm. Saying Brady is a better passer than Culpepper in his prime pre-injury is just nuts. Moss also played with Chris Carter towards the end of his career. So come on, Bomb, saying he's only played with scrubs is also nuts.

Facts are facts as you put it. The facts are that he's not the #1 target in the Pats system. The last guy who closely resembled a #1 was Branch who NEVER topped 1k yards or had more than 5 tds in a season. Moss (also at the end of his career) is one of a cluster of guys who also can catch the ball like Stallworth, Watson, Welker, and a former high draft pick who was injured last season in Jackson not to mention passes to the runningbacks, and SOMEHOW he ressurects his career in this system at this point in time? Maybe if this was 1999, but not now.

Another fact is he's old. He couldn't stay healthy since his first hammy injury and he's not gotten any younger....maybe he needs to call TO and Michael Jackson for some time in their oxygen tent?

Don't stick a fork in him but certainly don't blow a 4th rounder on him! He's a good pick in the 5th-7th but you won't find him there because people are still living in Moss' glory years.

I think Moss still has plenty in the tank. I think his attitude is what people are scared of, not his age. The whole "I only play when I want to play" mentality that he has verbalized. However in New England he has a viable shot at owning a Superbowl ring, because of that, he's going to want to play. And really, it's that simple.

Moss is still one of the best recievers out there, he still has some of the softest hands in the league. Brady is, without question, one of the top two QB's in the league. It's a winning combination.

In Phici's argument against taking Moss he pointed out the fact that the Patriot's pride themselves in not having a 'superstar' reciever, that they love to spread the ball around and that there will be no "Randy" factor. However, it would seem to me that the reason that the Patriots spend so much time spreading the ball around is because there hasn't been a superstar reciever. It's not because they haven't wanted one or not tried to get one, it's that none have fallen to them and the ones that did weren't worth the hype.

Enter Randy Moss.

Brady is the best quarterback in the league. Sure, Moss had Culpepper, but those stats that Moss gathered under Culpepper were a result of going over the top of defenders for catches.

Since then, Moss hasn't had a quarterback that could even get it in the area with consistency. Brady, will not only get it there, he will get it to a spot that makes it easy for Moss to catch it most of the time. This will be something new for Randy Moss.

no one is living in moss's glory years here, or he'd be a 1st round pick, not a 4th. thats the point of his value -- he is terrell owens in the 4th. theres some risk cuz hes kinda a crazy guy, but hes going to push double digit TDs and get enough yardage for it to work. as mentioned above, moss was the 15th and 19th WRs in those two "down years", which is still worth that mid 4th round pick even if there is no upside.

i loveeeeee this debate!! i have to say, this is probably as close as you will see anybody on fire & ice for somebody not in the 1st round. cuz like "the ram" said, in round 5, all of a sudden he's a good pick now.

but at 4.06, i think i would pass as well. I just think guys like Driver & Andre Johnson would be available. i just like them more.

i think moss will end up around the 17th-18th wr, which should be a round later. however, somebody will overpay for him and snag him up in late round 3 or early round 4. i voted on ice here, but if his ADP drops a bit, i have no issue taking him in my top 20 WR.

culpepper may have had a good arm, but his throws a lot of time were not that accurate... moss just stole the ball from the defenders. Heck, when he had collins in Oakland, i remember opening night against NWE, collins basically threw it to the defender, but moss jumped above the defender, plucked the ball away, and ran for the TD... absolutely amazing....

And....
Since he can't stay healthy, jump over Dbs anymore or run passed them....his value simply can't be that high.

Again...if he is there later...great. Round 4 I am looking for WR #2 or Rb #2...he is neither.

I say "Fire" because he has a ton of upside. There is no telling what kind of numbers he'll post playing with Brady on turf. Its a gamble, but its a cheap gamble in the middle of the fourth.

Moss still has the speed to run passed defenders, and can still jump over many of them. Not like he did in the past, but when you have a surgical passer like Brady, you don't have to rely on those abilities so much.

Just a note here...surgical passers don't just throw it up....and have you out jump and pull it down. They actually expect you to be where you are supposed to be......doesn't sound like Randy to me.

how is the 42nd overall pick a cheap gamble? you could have a guy like Andre Johnson or Donald Driver instead?

i think its a gamble to get him, and i cant definately see the justification for the gamble. but i dont consider a 4th rounder a "cheap" gamble.

cheap to me would be like round 7 onwards.
however, i think in round 5, i would gamble on him too

unbelievable upside for sure.

there are no drafts where andre johnson and donald driver are there at the 42nd pick. sorry. youre passing on guys like branch, burress, and ward.

Id take him the the 4th. He plays well when he's winning, and he's on the winningest team over the last 4 years. He plays well with a good QB, and he's playing with the best. With all of Brady's weapons, teams won't be able to double him up which means 1 on 1 coverage, and he's still talented enough to beat some of the best corners in the game.

Speaking as a Raider Fanatic, when it comes to Moss he took the money and disrupted the team. To me an Ice Dagger in the back would be an eye for an eye. RR

Sorry, but antsports says different. He's in the same league as Driver and Johnson. Which means he's waaaaaaaay too high for what he'll produce. As a #2 he's fine but as a #1.....fohgetaboutit!!!

if hes your #1 then it means either:

a) you already have two stud RBs and gates, and i can absolutely live with that, or
b) you drafted poorly

This is a really tough call. I went ice. I'm with Vicious--if he drops a few picks, I take him. As it stands, he's just a little too rich for my blood.

I have nothing against Moss--sure, the upside is there, and he's not that old, but I do have something against Pats WRs. Maybe Brady has found his go-to guy--but is it Moss, Stallworth, Welker? And the hamstring issues are really concerning.

I hope he proves me wrong, because I'd love to grab him next year in the 2nd round. A Brady-Moss love connection would be a beautiful thing

Actually, that's not a fact. Gillette Stadium is grass and so is Dolphins Stadium. That's 9 out of 16 games. Do better research.