New England's camera man, and Roger Goodell's Handling Of The Situation

drworm · 09-12-2007, 08:22 AM

it is against the rules to have a video camera on the sidelines in the coaches booth or in the locker rooms. end of story. they know the rules and they broke them. That in my eyes is cheating right there! whether the cheating affected the outcome of the game or not is what is in question. They already broke the rules of the NFL with having the camera on the sidelines.

shaselai · 09-12-2007, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drworm

it is against the rules to have a video camera on the sidelines in the coaches booth or in the locker rooms. end of story. they know the rules and they broke them. That in my eyes is cheating right there! whether the cheating affected the outcome of the game or not is what is in question. They already broke the rules of the NFL with having the camera on the sidelines.

I know that. I am just arguing the severity. It is better to explain to goodell that "ok, we wanted a better footage of the call when we get back home to watch" than "ok, we taped it and were using it at the game". goodell will obviously weigh the two violations differently but have punishments for them nonetheless - maybe the fact that if they didnt use it in game will be the decision whether they should forfeit the game in addition to losing draft picks or whatnot.

Remote Controller · 09-12-2007, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drworm

How does this affect me?

I have Rivers, Randy Moss, and Charges Def starting this week... Should I reconsider any of these?

Good question. I posted about a shot that LT lobbed across their bow above somewhere. I figured that would p!ss them off. They are either gonna be very mad, and make a statement, or they are gonna be very distracted. The fact that they are playing a team that, player for player, is more talented, should keep them highly motivated to be pissed this week. If they were playing a team like the Chiefs, i would be concerned about distraction. This is gonna be a fist fight, and I personally hope SD wins.

drworm · 09-12-2007, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaselai

I know that. I am just arguing the severity. It is better to explain to goodell that "ok, we wanted a better footage of the call when we get back home to watch" than "ok, we taped it and were using it at the game". goodell will obviously weigh the two violations differently but have punishments for them nonetheless - maybe the fact that if they didnt use it in game will be the decision whether they should forfeit the game in addition to losing draft picks or whatnot.

I did read somewhere that a forfeiture of the game is unlikely because of the time elapsed. But this is just as rediculous as in hockey when a player bleeds determines the amount of penality time. Really, think about it... does it really matter how bad they cheated?! no, the fact is they did cheat, and no matter how you word it it is still cheating. unethical! no matter how you slice it, or how you try to justify it cheating is cheating. And it should not be tolerated especially on the level of professional sports. These people are role models for Americas youth! disappointing.

Remote Controller · 09-12-2007, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eaglechick

terrell davis on nfl network had a great idea--put the pats on probation like they do to college teams, i.e. no matter how good their record is, no playoffs!!!

think that would deter teams from cheating? i do

Here!! Here!!!! :beermugsraised:

Remote Controller · 09-12-2007, 08:49 AM

You punish for steroids, because it is an unfair advantage. This is no diffferent, and worse, cuz this is your Coach. He ought to be dealt with severely, and I love the idea of No Playoffs. What ever happens pick wise, needs to contain severe enough cap hits to prevent spending x amount of money elsewhere's in a different manner. This is a major deal. It might not end here.

Phicinfan · 09-12-2007, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaselai

I am a Pat's fan and may be biased when i make my comments.. First of all, sure they have some advantage over the other team but how many plays can they actually "cheat out of"? I don't know how many plays the defense has but it can't be that few right? It takes time for the camera guy to tape and report back (unless there is actually another team investigating on the footage on the fly to figure out calls...). But regardless, i dont see them getting that much of an advantage that they would win by so many points aginast Jets or that blowout against GreenBay.

In addition to that, it depends on the players who executes whatever play the coaches are calling - cheating or not, so the players have to be great by their own rights to be able to execute - i bet the browns wouldn't break 500 even if they have the whole play by play of their opponents laid out in front of them. Also, I am hoping that the Pats are taping and "cheating" as a last resort sort of thing where if they need it they will use it but not "lets use it whenever we can". maybe like a straight A student who is so scared of the exam that he/she brings a backup cheat sheet in case he needs it but if he aces it then no need....

I think the commisioner should have Bill explain to him play by play on why he is calling that play against the Jets and have a team of analysts there to see if there are any plays that seems really awkward or surprising that could be attributed to the inside knowledge. Heck, Bill should offer it (if he didn't use it of course) to lessen the severity. It is better to read "pats recorded video of defense coordinator but didn't cheat at game" than "pats cheated at game".
I am saying cheating is right but there are different severities to it and if Bill did cheat throughtout that game then it is a shame because he should've done it to the chargers or a worthy team to be caught on.

So.....if they can't decide how much cheating effected the outcome...it doesn't matter? Really?

Why do you feel it is necessary to make this a grey area? By definition, cheating is going against the rules, knowingly to gain an advantage. What advantage is not the point. It puts you above the rules, and as such deserves punishment.

Espn has an article about other rules violations and penalties they got....like Denver losing a 3rd round pick for salary cap violation with Elway as an example.

However, in this case...how do we know how much it effected the outcome. You can be the worst player in the world..but if you know in advance who will be open and why...won't that make you better?

Remote Controller · 09-12-2007, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaselai

I am a Pat's fan and may be biased when i make my comments..

To your credit, you were forthright with this opening statment. Now, truly take a look at it, without the bias.

drworm · 09-12-2007, 08:59 AM

yes, try and imagine that it happened the other way with the Jets cheating and then destroying the PATS... then what would you want done?

deuce4321 · 09-12-2007, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaselai

I am a Pat's fan and may be biased when i make my comments.. First of all, sure they have some advantage over the other team but how many plays can they actually "cheat out of"? I don't know how many plays the defense has but it can't be that few right? It takes time for the camera guy to tape and report back (unless there is actually another team investigating on the footage on the fly to figure out calls...). But regardless, i dont see them getting that much of an advantage that they would win by so many points aginast Jets or that blowout against GreenBay.

I was watching NFL Live yesterday and they stated how this was a huge advantage. When teams go into a locker room they get a set of poloroids with each play by play, one shot before the snap, one shot during action. If a coordinater knows exactly what pressure is comming from where and which recievers will be in single or dropped coverage that would be a huge advantage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaselai

In addition to that, it depends on the players who executes whatever play the coaches are calling - cheating or not, so the players have to be great by their own rights to be able to execute - i bet the browns wouldn't break 500 even if they have the whole play by play of their opponents laid out in front of them. Also, I am hoping that the Pats are taping and "cheating" as a last resort sort of thing where if they need it they will use it but not "lets use it whenever we can". maybe like a straight A student who is so scared of the exam that he/she brings a backup cheat sheet in case he needs it but if he aces it then no need....

Hate to break it to you but to make it as a starter in the NFL, regardless of which team you are on, means you are a huge talent. If you are given this opportunity to succeed then you will take advantage of it... defenses are designed to have a weakness somewhere in order to bring any pressure and if you know where that weakness is then you know already where to turn and throw to/ run to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaselai

I am saying cheating is right but there are different severities to it and if Bill did cheat throughtout that game then it is a shame because he should've done it to the chargers or a worthy team to be caught on.

You must be a relatively ignorant pats "FAN" if you dont know the history of these teams last year. With pats up 24-17 in 4th quarter pats drove and got a FG blocked. Then Jets were driving back up field when a pass was intercepted. If he had connected, he could have tied the game. Narrow victory for PATS. Maybe they used thier "cheatcheat" that they werent planning on using for that game.
Then later in the year Jets beat Pats 17-14.
In playoffs, after gathering 2 games worth of illegal contraband the pats won convinsingly.

true21 · 09-12-2007, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phicinfan

However, in this case...how do we know how much it effected the outcome. You can be the worst player in the world..but if you know in advance who will be open and why...won't that make you better?

i couldnt agree more with phicinfan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaselai

In addition to that, it depends on the players who executes whatever play the coaches are calling - cheating or not, so the players have to be great by their own rights to be able to execute - i bet the browns wouldn't break 500 even if they have the whole play by play of their opponents laid out in front of them.

yes, talent on the field does go a huge way towards determining success and execution on the field. but this isnt baseball or basketball where the coaches -for the most part- just plug in lineups and let the players do their thing.
the NFL is a coaches league, and success and winning is determined more by the coaches strategy than in any other sport. so if one team knows what the other team is going to do before the play, then i dont think any amount of talent can make up for that disadvantage.

Remote Controller · 09-12-2007, 09:10 AM

I predict what ever comes down, will not be severe enough, and will damage goodell's efforts going forward. He told Wade Wilson that Coaches were to be held MORE accountable, before he gave him a 5 game suspension. If he doesn't come down hard here, he has lost everything he has been working towrds, and i don't think it will happen. Goodell is in a very tough spot! I wonder what Kraft has to say, and if he knew? He sure has been very quiet!

Birdman · 09-12-2007, 09:16 AM

The History of Cheating & New England Patriots
RedLasso

ESPN's Coverage Yesterday
RedLasso

Bill Parcells Talks About Spying 2 Days Ago
RedLasso

eaglechick · 09-12-2007, 09:18 AM

Shaselai, think of it this way--

(I was trying to think of how I would feel if I suddenly found out Andy Reid had been cheating for the past few years, and then I was like, well, that's pretty pathetic if he was cheating and we still lost all those crappy games lol)

the problem here is that the Pats have been too damn good in recent history, and any question of cheating makes everyone think, well, when did this all start? because I really doubt BB would out of the blue the last two years start doing this.

of course, the other question is, if this is a big cheating conspiracy, how did it not get leaked earlier? are other teams doing this? mike is saying the colts have been accused of it but anyone else? i think it's a shame that it's come to this.

Birdman · 09-12-2007, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Remote Controller

I predict what ever comes down, will not be severe enough, and will damage goodell's efforts going forward.

I completely agree. Whatever the punishment handed out is there is absolutely no way it will be equal to the crime. Forfeiting the game itself and a first round draft pick this year and next wouldn't come close to the competitive edge gained by knowing what the other team is doing... and for how long? maybe years? they cant take away their Super Bowls even if they were assisted by this cheating. The damage then, would already have been done.

This is WAY worse than the Tim Donaghy scandal.

As an Eagles fan whose city has never won a Super Bowl it is bad enough to know that the player most responsible for our loss that day (rodney harrison) was having steroids delivered to his home. Now we may never know if our signals were being stolen and the whole game itself being exploited. Call me biased, call me crazy - but I really have to wonder.

drworm · 09-12-2007, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Birdman

As an Eagles fan whose city has never won a Super Bowl it is bad enough to know that the player most responsible for our loss that day (rodney harrison) was having steroids delivered to his home. Now we may never know if our signals were being stolen and the whole game itself being exploited. Call me biased, call me crazy - but I really have to wonder.

As an Eagles fan myself I tend to disagree with this. Only because if you remember our defense really was the only thing that kept us in that game. Also, I am thinking that would be a much harder game to cheat at, there is no other games that week. So everyone is watching.

Birdman · 09-12-2007, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drworm

As an Eagles fan myself I tend to disagree with this. Only because if you remember our defense really was the only thing that kept us in that game. Also, I am thinking that would be a much harder game to cheat at, there is no other games that week. So everyone is watching.

First off, the defense gave up 24 points, 17 of which were surrendered in the second half. Only 7 of them given up in the first. Do I have proof the Patriots cheated (aside from the real MVP Harrison)? No, I do not. Do we have proof that they didn't cheat? No, we do not.

I'm not saying they for sure were cheating and stealing our signals, but this entire scandal raises questions of "when did this start?" and "how deep does it go?". One has to wonder about not just the regular season, but the playoffs - and yes, Super Bowls.

GlennsPatriots · 09-12-2007, 10:00 AM

I was going to hold off until all the facts were disclosed... but I couldn't.

The Patriots Cheated.

It's obvious that the NFL knew they had an issue when they sent out a statement saying this type of stuff needed to stop. After hearing experts and former players speak on this topic you'd have to be pretty naive to think that every team doesn't steal defensive signals to some extent. So from a coach's point of view, if you arn't doing it, you are at a disadvantage. Unfortunately Belichick chose to take it to the extreem level with a video camera.

Last year the Packers chose to usher the cameraman off the sidelines in a "nice try guys" type of guesture yet here it is in the first game of the season and the NYJ rat out thier arch rivals to the league office. (and don't try and tell me that Mangina didn't partake in these practices while he was in NE)
Jets couldn't win but at least they got some satisfaction on Sunday. Would the Jets even care if they were winning and had won the game? I hardly believe this will warrent a huge penalty. I would guess a draft pick but not much else.

... as far as eliminating radio devices... I think this will actually do the opposite and insure that 1 defensive player will be allowed to have one. This eliminates all the hand gestures and signals being stolen. (which is why no one has been accused of stealing offensive signals).

Bill Belechick has released a statement saying that he has spoken to league offices and he appologized to the Patriots organization.

Birdman · 09-12-2007, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlennsPatriots

After hearing experts and former players speak on this topic you'd have to be pretty naive to think that every team doesn't steal defensive signals to some extent. So from a coach's point of view, if you arn't doing it, you are at a disadvantage.

Who is saying stuff like this? Back this up with specifics please because all the commentary I've heard from former players and coaches has NOT said anything like this at all. Fans of the NFL and the Patriots are saying this, and its mostly based on rumor, word of mouth, or assumption.

Name names.

Remote Controller · 09-12-2007, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlennsPatriots

I was going to hold off until all the facts were disclosed... but I couldn't.

The Patriots Cheated.

It's obvious that the NFL knew they had an issue when they sent out a statement saying this type of stuff needed to stop. After hearing experts and former players speak on this topic you'd have to be pretty naive to think that every team doesn't steal defensive signals to some extent. So from a coach's point of view, if you arn't doing it, you are at a disadvantage. Unfortunately Belichick chose to take it to the extreem level with a video camera.

Last year the Packers chose to usher the cameraman off the sidelines in a "nice try guys" type of guesture yet here it is in the first game of the season and the NYJ rat out thier arch rivals to the league office. (and don't try and tell me that Mangina didn't partake in these practices while he was in NE)
Jets couldn't win but at least they got some satisfaction on Sunday. Would the Jets even care if they were winning and had won the game? I hardly believe this will warrent a huge penalty. I would guess a draft pick but not much else.

... as far as eliminating radio devices... I think this will actually do the opposite and insure that 1 defensive player will be allowed to have one. This eliminates all the hand gestures and signals being stolen. (which is why no one has been accused of stealing offensive signals).

Bill Belechick has released a statement saying that he has spoken to league offices and he appologized to the Patriots organization.

Sorry, Rose colored glasses were involved. This is a major thing, and BB is caught red handed. The NFL must act strongly! This is way beyond Mangini vs. BB, though that is likely how it came to be. I see some domino affect when the smoke clears. Did you see the way Parcells reacted Monday night when Mort questioned him???


09-12-2007, 09:16 AM	#53
Birdman Outlaw Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 2,012 vCash: 55841 Donate	The History of Cheating & New England Patriots RedLasso ESPN's Coverage Yesterday RedLasso Bill Parcells Talks About Spying 2 Days Ago RedLasso Last edited by Birdman; 09-12-2007 at 09:55 AM.

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09-12-2007, 08:22 AM	#41
drworm Outlaw Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bristol, PA Posts: 370 vCash: 3010 Donate	it is against the rules to have a video camera on the sidelines in the coaches booth or in the locker rooms. end of story. they know the rules and they broke them. That in my eyes is cheating right there! whether the cheating affected the outcome of the game or not is what is in question. They already broke the rules of the NFL with having the camera on the sidelines.


09-12-2007, 08:49 AM	#46
Remote Controller Yeah.......That's me! Join Date: May 2006 Location: Top of the Texas Panhandle Posts: 3,819 vCash: 357985 Donate	You punish for steroids, because it is an unfair advantage. This is no diffferent, and worse, cuz this is your Coach. He ought to be dealt with severely, and I love the idea of No Playoffs. What ever happens pick wise, needs to contain severe enough cap hits to prevent spending x amount of money elsewhere's in a different manner. This is a major deal. It might not end here.


09-12-2007, 08:59 AM	#49
drworm Outlaw Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bristol, PA Posts: 370 vCash: 3010 Donate	yes, try and imagine that it happened the other way with the Jets cheating and then destroying the PATS... then what would you want done?


09-12-2007, 09:10 AM	#52
Remote Controller Yeah.......That's me! Join Date: May 2006 Location: Top of the Texas Panhandle Posts: 3,819 vCash: 357985 Donate	I predict what ever comes down, will not be severe enough, and will damage goodell's efforts going forward. He told Wade Wilson that Coaches were to be held MORE accountable, before he gave him a 5 game suspension. If he doesn't come down hard here, he has lost everything he has been working towrds, and i don't think it will happen. Goodell is in a very tough spot! I wonder what Kraft has to say, and if he knew? He sure has been very quiet!


09-12-2007, 09:18 AM	#54
eaglechick Hot Mama Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Germany (from Philly) Posts: 3,298 vCash: 1277311 Donate Blog Entries: 9	Shaselai, think of it this way-- (I was trying to think of how I would feel if I suddenly found out Andy Reid had been cheating for the past few years, and then I was like, well, that's pretty pathetic if he was cheating and we still lost all those crappy games lol) the problem here is that the Pats have been too damn good in recent history, and any question of cheating makes everyone think, well, when did this all start? because I really doubt BB would out of the blue the last two years start doing this. of course, the other question is, if this is a big cheating conspiracy, how did it not get leaked earlier? are other teams doing this? mike is saying the colts have been accused of it but anyone else? i think it's a shame that it's come to this.


09-12-2007, 10:00 AM	#58
GlennsPatriots Meatwhistle Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Lakeville MA Posts: 1,189 vCash: 20189 Donate	I was going to hold off until all the facts were disclosed... but I couldn't. The Patriots Cheated. It's obvious that the NFL knew they had an issue when they sent out a statement saying this type of stuff needed to stop. After hearing experts and former players speak on this topic you'd have to be pretty naive to think that every team doesn't steal defensive signals to some extent. So from a coach's point of view, if you arn't doing it, you are at a disadvantage. Unfortunately Belichick chose to take it to the extreem level with a video camera. Last year the Packers chose to usher the cameraman off the sidelines in a "nice try guys" type of guesture yet here it is in the first game of the season and the NYJ rat out thier arch rivals to the league office. (and don't try and tell me that Mangina didn't partake in these practices while he was in NE) Jets couldn't win but at least they got some satisfaction on Sunday. Would the Jets even care if they were winning and had won the game? I hardly believe this will warrent a huge penalty. I would guess a draft pick but not much else. ... as far as eliminating radio devices... I think this will actually do the opposite and insure that 1 defensive player will be allowed to have one. This eliminates all the hand gestures and signals being stolen. (which is why no one has been accused of stealing offensive signals). Bill Belechick has released a statement saying that he has spoken to league offices and he appologized to the Patriots organization.