Your asking for the impossible, Birdman. None of us "fans" are going to have proof of anything.

Sign stealing happens, this is why coaches do everything they can to hide themselves when calling plays.

Terry Bowden was on the radio this morning saying that things like this are not uncommon, citing a story from when he was at Auburn. Bowden busted someone from Auburn, on scolarship, stealing Auburn's playbook for another school. The kid had been paid by someone from the other school to get the playbook.

Cheating is always around somewhere, which is why you have to come down extremely hard on anybody that is caught, in this case, Bill Belichick. If Belichick gets off easy, with merely a draft pick, the punishment will do no good.

In the Patriots case, they got caught red handed though, and may be the only team to have used VIDEO to do this.

What do you think about Eaglechick's post on the post season stuff?? That sounds like a very good compliment to at least the 1 game forfeiture, stiff fines, and draft pick loss!

Has Kraft said anything??

Taking the "playoffs" away from the team wouldn't hurt my feelings, but I don't know how much I want to punish the entire team for this. I have always been on the fence about this with college football as well. Coaches/alumni/AD's cheat, and while they get punished, so do a bunch of kids who might have nothing to do with it.

I think forfeiting the week 1 game, giving the win to the Jets (who they cheated against), and a 4 game suspension for Belichick (no contact with the team whatsoever), a first round draft pick, and a HUGE! team fine would be fitting.

quote from ProFootballTalk .com
POSTED 4:05 p.m. EDT, September 11, 2007
..."Still, we doubt that the Pats are the only team stealing signals, if the final decision is that they are or have been. Multiple readers have told us that the Eagles were taking great pains to shield their own defensive signals from prying eyes against the Packers, which suggests that this could be a fairly common thing."

Well if I were a Jet's fan then i would be pissed too.. But they said the cameraman was taken out early in the game so the beating we took later on cant be because of the few shots taken that early on unless we used up all our plays right? If they caught the cameraman late in the game then yeah I would be like "they should forfeit". Regardless we took a beating and with 3 defense coming after Moss (very close btw) and Elli's "stupid" 108 yard return I doubt the cheating had much to do with it. If the game was close then yeah i would agree.

And they also predict that Randy Moss will be cut before the season starts, and a long list of ..... nevermind.....

To be clear here.

The rule being violated is not stealing signals. It is taking video of the opposing team during a game. Period. Yes, everyone attempts to steal signals in a game. However, the Patriots are guilty of filming the coaches for extensive research later. That is the issue, that is the cheating. For the record, per Mike's much earlier comment, there have been on cases I have heard of this type of filming before.

__________________
Expert on nothing, opinionated on everything...

Agreed. I read ECs earlier comment about how she wonders if the Eagles loss in the SB was because of this. I'm a Colts fan, how do you think I feel? Until 2 years ago, We lost to the Pats almost everytime we played them. The Colts have never had a stud Defense, but it does make you wonder if the Pats had an advantage. After BB heard all of the fuss over stealing signals and videotaping, why would he continue to do this? #1 This is stupid on his part especially since he was playing against Mangini who would know how to blow the wistle on him. #2 This is a total slap in the face of the whole NFL. The NFL makes a big deal about not using video to steal signals and in the first game of the season, BB says f#%k you, I'll do it anyway. I don't now know if BB is as good as everyone seems to think he is and I don't know if Brady is as good as everyone thinks he is and I don't know if the Pats are the dominating team that everyone says they are. What I do know is BB is the biggest A#$hole in the NFL. Mangini is the second biggest A#$hole in the NFL. Why did he not get a case of integrity when he was the Defensive coordinator for the Pats. As far as the Colts stealing signals, I'm sure they do it, they just don't use video. There is a specific rule in place and only one team has broken that rule.

So the Packers are possibly guilty of the videotaping and/or cheating because of this post on PFT - the most reputable site ever? As an Eagles fan I can tell you that our team has always (at least under the Reid era) been paranoid about hiding our play calling on O and D. But theres a difference between a healthy degree of caution and a leap in logic to say because certain coaches are cautious everyone does it.

Breaking News: I locked my car earlier today rather than leaving the keys inside with a sign saying "Please Do Not Steal". This strongly suggests that car theft is not a rare incident, but instead something that everyone does.

Likewise, my neighbor has a home security system. Which could suggest that burglaries are pretty common. So if you are a burglar, you are not at all unusual.

Mike,

If you noticed I never asked for proof. I asked to name names IE: which teams are accused of doing it, former/current players or coaches who claim certain teams did it or that its common etc. Obviously we as fans do not have proof - but Glenn was saying that according to former players and coaches this stuff goes on all over the place. I was asking for a little more substance than that because I haven't heard anything about this and I've heard a lot of commentary on the issue.

Your example of Terry Bowden is about stealing the physical playbook itself rather than spying during the game or using videotape. Also, it is on the college level and not an example of the pro game.

I agree with you about having to come down hard on cheating and a draft pick being insufficient. You are also correct (as far as I know) that the Pats are the only team that has used videotape to spy on their opponents plays.

Seems like reid might even be more careful with the pack then other teams as they run like systems, and things would be much easier to pick up.

I think Goodell should Publish the Patriots Playbook and reveal all of their Def. signs, forcing BB to re-write his book!!

quote from NFL.com:
Tomlin on alleged spying: 'Where's there's smoke, there's fire'

Associated Press

PITTSBURGH -- Steelers coach Mike Tomlin isn't surprised a New England Patriots employee is suspected of videotaping signals by Jets coaches during Sunday's season opener.

Spying rumors in the NFL are nothing new, Tomlin said Tuesday, and he wouldn't be surprised if the allegations were true.

I guess you missed that full story a page back??

The jist of the full story doesn't really help your arguement here.

The Boston Globe reports New England Patriots HC Bill Belichick has released the following statement concerning the videotaping incident during Week 1's win over the Jets: "Earlier this week, I spoke with Commissioner Goodell about a videotaping procedure during last Sunday's game and my interpretation of the rules. At this point, we have not been notified of the league's ruling. Although it remains a league matter, I want to apologize to everyone who has been affected, most of all ownership, staff and players. Following the league’s decision, I will have further comment."

I can see where the ruling says no video equipment could be confusing and unclear.........

In it's entirety. He was pointing finger at BB

• -- Belichick Illegally Taping Opposing Coaches since his Cleveland Days --
  Wed Sep 12, 2007 --from FFMastermind.com
• The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette reports Steelers assistant coaches said privately that New England Patriots HC Bill Belichick has illegally used cameras to spy on opposing coaches flashing signals from the sideline for years, even when he was coach of the Cleveland Browns. The NFL has confiscated a video camera and its contents from a Patriots employee who was standing on the sideline during New England's victory against the New York Jets Sunday, recording hand signals by Jets coaches, according to an ESPN report. The Patriots reportedly were warned about a previous use of a camera in a similar situation in Green Bay after the Packers escorted the cameraman from the field. A Boston Globe report also said the Buffalo Bills complained that the Patriots used a camera in a game against them last year. Steelers coaches, who asked not to be identified, have suspected for a long time that the Patriots used such a device to gain an illegal advantage, although they did not file a complaint with the league. One assistant said the Steelers changed their defensive signals whenever they played against New England because of their suspicions. New Steelers HC Mike Tomlin did not outright accuse New England of cheating, but said that the rumors have been around and "where there is smoke, there's fire." Tomlin, at his press conference yesterday, responded to the allegations that the Patriots have used cameras illegally to focus on opposing coaches along the sideline in order to steal their signals. "You hear rumors of things of that nature. It's nothing new. In terms of confirming it, it's never been confirmed in any instance to my knowledge. But usually where there is smoke, there's fire. Those rumors are founded on something. So it's not totally shocking, no."

• -- Jets Finally Catch Patriots Spying --
  Wed Sep 12, 2007 --from FFMastermind.com
• The New York Daily News reports armed with counter-intelligence from HC Eric Mangini, the Jets apparently have succeeded in busting the Patriots' spy ring. A former assistant under Patriots HC Bill Belichick, Mangini arrived in New York last year with an insider's knowledge of the Patriots' sign-stealing surveillance tactics and he shared the dirty little secret with members of the Jets' organization, a person with knowledge of the matter said. It wasn't until the fifth Mangini-Belichick showdown - last Sunday - that the Jets were able to catch the Patriots. Tipped off by Jets security, an NFL security official confiscated a video camera and tape from a Patriots employee at the Meadowlands, and the evidence is believed to be damning. Commissioner Roger Goodell hasn't made a final decision, according to a high-level source, but he wants to resolve the issue ASAP. A league spokesman refuted an ESPN report last night that said Goodell already has determined that the Patriots violated league rules. An announcement could be made by the end of the week. The Patriots, who will have a chance to present their side to Goodell by Friday, could be stripped of multiple draft choices and/or fined heavily. Matt Estrella, 26, a Patriots video assistant, was nabbed just before halftime of the Jets' 38-14 loss on opening day. He allegedly videotaped hand signals from the Jets' defensive coaches on the sideline, defying an edict from Goodell, who warned teams before the season that he wouldn't tolerate cheating. Several teams have suspected the Patriots of stealing signs. So did the Jets, thanks to Mangini. "(The Jets) knew they did it," the person with knowledge of the situation said. "They caught the guy a year ago, but couldn't do anything about it. When Eric came, he said that's what they used to do. Bill is going to be (ticked) at Eric. He kissed and told." The cameraman, wearing a team polo shirt under the league-mandated sideline photographer's vest, was stopped by security as he tried to enter the New England locker room before halftime, sources said. An animated discussion ensued, involving league security, Jets security and Patriots security. The dispute, which occurred in the bowels of the stadium, lasted more than an hour, virtually the entire second half. At one point, it became so heated that New Jersey state troopers were summoned as a precaution, a source said. The Jets apparently were trying to confiscate the videotape, which wound up in the possession of NFL security. The tape was placed in a box, sealed and forwarded to the league. "He looked scared to death," one source said of Estrella.

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The last sentence explains the delay till tuesday.