Tell you what. I am obviously not going to convince you all otherwise. But, let me say this. I DO agree, for a 14 year period, the Bengals WERE trash. I obviously can't argue that, since they did not even have ONE winning season in that period.

I will also tell you that it is changing. NO, they still aren't a top flight team. However, changes ARE happening, and Lewis however he is doing it, is getting it done.

Yes, Rudi would be nice to have. I am sorry, but not at over $6 million a year. There is too much RB talent out there available to go that high. Now, if he is willing to come down to legit numbers, I hope they DO sign him for multy year. I happen to think you NEED two solid rb's in the NFL.

The fact is though, Bengals have issues. They have a banged up former first round wr, that they don't know if he will be back to form or not. The other solid wr contributor is a UFA in March. They need a Center, that is not nearing social security. They MUST get DL help. I think that 6mill could fix alot of those holes.

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Expert on nothing, opinionated on everything...

I think you are focusing too much on the winning and losing and not getting to the essence of the problem here. The ONLY reason the Bengals are average these days is because Lewis is a hell of a coach. Ironically the ONLY reason Lewis is a coach at the Bengals is because they are a poor organization. When Lewis was hired they had interviewed another high profile coach who did not want to go there because they would not budge on paying scouts and having a scout team that is the same is most other NFL teams. Lewis got the job because he was desperate for a job and was willing to work with such a cheap pay structure for their scouts.

It is obvious that nothing has changed because again you still have Bengals players who are itching to get out of there under any circumstance.
Really? This coming from a guy who used to think you don't need one.

But anyway they didn't have to pay him 6 mil a year if they just wouldve tried to extend his contract when they had the chance. Again even if they couldnt get anything done AT THE VERY LEAST treat the guy with some respect so that you don't look like you dont treat your players right which is EXACTLY what the sentiment is about that organization. You not only lose Rudi but EVERY other potential FA.
Not really if you have a situation where no one wants to go there except for cast offs.

First I agree with you on some points. The main issue with this team is the owner. Pure and simple. He is trying to run it as a profit making business, so he pinches pennies. Or at least did. I don't disagree. However, that is starting to change.
Also, yes winning IS the key. As you have so painstakenly pointed out, PLAYERS win games, not schemes or coaches. Obviously they are doing something right lately.
Lastly, if you are talking Coughlin, you are wrong. He didn't take the job because it wasn't offered. It wasn't offered because he wanted complete control with no interference from ownership at all. Brown couldn't swallow that at all.

So the Eagles are a bad team also? Pittsburgh? Both have lost alot of FA's lately. Are they also a bad team?


I still don't. Look at Atlanta and Philly. Neither have what you would call a stud rb. Looky where they are, Philly for 4 straight years.

Yes, they could have locked Rudi up last year for a multy year deal. Much less money. However, you and others would be dogging Cincy merclessly had he busted this year. He had only started half the season, and over 50% of his scores and yards were from 3 games. Do you REALLY think he deserved big dollars then?


Perhaps. Perhaps they have decided NOT to overspend and ruin a gaining team with a player not worth that much. Who knows. What I do know is I don't think they are in a place where ONE player makes or breaks them.

Again how is it starting to change when again another player is leaving and not only leaving but dying to get out?

No winning is NOT the key not in this situation. People are making a big deal about what the Bengals have done the last two years but all they have done is go 8-8. .500. Shit they can't even be considered a winning team yet because they have yet to have a winning season in I dont know how long. The point is as much as they have won the last 2 seasons, they will NOT be able to improve or even maintain that level if the ownership keeps being the same cheap incompetent bastards they have been since forever. Marvin Lewis and the Bill Parcells of the world may be able to have limited success with crap talent but eventually you gotta get some good players...something the Bengals are content with letting go and not even putting the effort into finding the.
No it wasn't coughlin it was some other high profile coach. This is two years ago not last year. The report I remember reading was that the guy just wanted the Bengals to put money into their scout team that was comparable to the rest of the NFL and they didn't want to do that.
They have also signed a lot of good players to replace those they lost. On top of that they actually have a good scout team that can find players in the draft. Neither of these things the Bengals are capable of doing.

Philly has a stud RB in Brian Westbrook. The Falcons are a unique situation because their stud RB is also their QB.
Again what big dollars? It wouldve been less than what he's asking for now. I seem to recall that Kurt Warner had ONE good year and they immediately gave him a multi year contract. Brees has had ONE good year but he is definately going to demand a long term contract and big ass money. The guy showed he could perform in the Cincy system and instead of locking him up they ignored him and pissed him off.

Yeah no kidding and pissing off your big time FA's and sending the message to the rest of the league that its the same old bungles who won't take care of you is NOT the way to run an organization.

Nothing has changed.

Got YOU! He has stated CLEARLY he wants to remain a Bengal. He just wants a long term deal. He feels he met the team half way by playing on a one year contract this year. Read any article sonny, he don't want to leave!



Again, that is not the argument here. I AGREED with you on the ownership of the Bengals. Yes they are tight fisted, and cheap. However, being IN Cincinnati and seeing the changes take place, I don't think you are correct. Do you realize at one time they didn't even supply clean towels to the players? The team NOW has a top of the line facility to practice and work in. The coaches have more autonomy ON who plays and how. However, that does NOT change the fact there is a cap, and sometimes players must be let go to meet that cap. Go look at Philly and Pittsburgh.


Uh....well...sure. You say so. Again, they didn't HAVE scouts two years ago. They had a service they hired to do it. NOW the coaches go out, along with scouts and player personell folks to scout players. Oh, and yes, they still need more help there.


Oh, okay now we are changing the argument. First it was letting good players go. NOW it is well you can let players go, but you need good player to replace them. Sheesh, make up your mind. IN case you haven't noticed, since Lewis has joined the team, over 75% of the overall roster has changed. INCLUDING being able to sellect his OWN staff. Now that may not be news for some, but for Cincy, this is a miracle.



ahem.... I am sorry, I am a huge eagles fan and Brian Westbrook is NOT a stud rb. He is a very good one, and fits their offense, but he is not a stud.


Again, I already admitted they could have and maybe should have signed him earlier. I also don't think it is fair to compare Rudi to QBs. Look, there are alot of good rbs in this years draft, and also FA's. Rudi isn't worth 6million a year. Sorry, thems the facts. I hope they can work something out. But not at a cost that cripples this team.



It has changed, for all the reasons listed above. Could this have happened differently, sure. It is a business though and they made their decisions. I like Rudi, but not for over $6mill a year.

Oh really he wants to stay? Is that why he said he will not go back there even if they franchise him? I mean shit think about that. A guy would rather NOT PLAY than play for them. Yeah he really wants to be a Bengal


Dude just because NOW they supply clean towels to the players doesnt mean they are changing anything if players CONTINUE to be disgruntled and wanting to leave that organization as if they had AIDS. So they improved from horrible to worse...that isn't changing...that is continuing to be stubborn tight fisted people who do NOT want to do what it takes to win. Cap has nothing to do with it. ITs all about treating their players correctly something they wouldn't have the slightest clue about.

Exactly. They still need more help there JUST to get to what every other NFL team has. Again if youre parents are starving and all of sudden they decide to throw you some crumbs...that is not change.

Well if you haven't noticed that is what good teams do they replace players who leave with good ones. If you will also notice, only the Bengals have the kind of reputation where players ONLY want to leave and players who actually have a career DONT want to go there. Every team will lose players but not every team will lose EVERY good player they have. Only the Bengals have players who CANT WAIT to Bolt. On top of that you have NO ONE that wants to go play there unless you are desperate for a paycheck. The Bengals are the black hole of the NFL and players know it. You go there only when you're career is in trouble because they are the only ones that will give you a chance.


Yeah you also said that Edgerrin James isn't a stud so you wouldn't be the first person I'd ask about who is and who isn't a stud RB. Westbrook IS a stud RB and if you can't see it then you don't know football.

Rudi isn't worth 6 mil...maybe maybe not....but your rep as an organization should be worth that money. Shit look what Omar Minaya did with the Mets. Before he came the Mets had been through a year where they werent spending money. He comes in and overpays for Pedro. That led to the signing of Carlos Beltran. Beltran said had they not signed PEdro he wouldnt have considered them...but that by signing him he saw that they had changed and were going in a different better direction. One signing leads to another and both of these signings will lead to other ones later on. Players will WANT to go there.

Fact is the Bengals have a rep of being the cheapest and worst organization to play for. Cincinatti is no South Beach or New York and there is absolutely ZERO reason to want to go play there. For the Bengals to compete they HAVE to change that perception and having another player saying he'd rather not play than play for them isn't helping. Now its too late with Rudi. They shouldve given him what he wanted and moved on.


It hasn't changed. The Bengals are still the same cheap piece of shit organization they have always been.

Hey Einstein. Go READ. The AGENT AND RUDI WANT TO STAY a BENGAL. He just doesn't want to play under another 1year contract. He wants his big signing bonus. Thems the facts!




Sigh, you just won't give up. I keep giving examples of improvement and you continue to ignore them. If you remember, when Takeo left, Brian Simmons was also an FA. Gee..he was happy to resign. OT Willie was happy to re-up. Takeo was mad because they went and signed Simmons first, and planned to tag him instead. He took no responsibility with the fact he wanted TOO much money. Things HAVE changed. No, this still isn't the best run team, not even close.



They went to a team that had NO say but the Owner, to a team that now is hiring scouts, working WITH the coach to meet HIS needs and working with better talent. How can you say NO improvement?



At one time I would agree with this. Not now. Too many good players ARE staying, and ARE signing good contracts. Yes, they have missed some big FA's they wanted. But it is due to not paying too much for someone. Again, eveyone has players who want to bolt. Look at Philly. Yes, they are set up for those losses. Cincinnati is working to get there. But it takes a while to fix alot of wrongs done.




Fine, I was wrong about Edge. I am not wrong about Westbrook. YOU don't know about football if you think he is a "STUD."



There is NO cap in Baseball. So yes, Minaya CAN overpay one to gain more. Talk to San Fran or Washington or a few other teams who made this mistake!

DUFUS He is NOT saying he wants to leave jackass. Jesus I hate when people don't fucking listen. Why, oh WHY would he be forcing a long term contract if he wants to leave??
As for should they have signed him sooner, I already said yes. Of course hindsight is always 20/20. They rolled the dice, and now they have to play the game. What I feel funny about is you are making it sound like Cincy has NO plans to negotiate at all. They are ONLY going to tag him. They are, and will continue to talk to him. He and his agent need to come down, or he gets tagged. Thats the business. He doesn't like it, then he needs to see some reality of what he is really worth.



Nope. In fact they are doing the right things now. Not giving all to one player(Pickens for example) and not being able to fix the rest of the team. This team is set to make HUGE strides this year. Young QB on his second year of starting, STUD wr in Johnson making big plays. YOUNG studly off line to block for whomever. There biggest need is DL. They can fix some if not alot of their needs in the draft, but there are some solid DL in FA worth money the could fix alot of pains rather than 6 million to Rudi.

You know usually when players negotiate with their teams they don't delcare in the press that they'd rather NOT play than play for them.



Things haven't changed...they still have disgruntled players looking to get out of there as soon as they can.


What you call improvement I call more of the same. Again improving from horrible to worse is not an improvement in my book.


There is a difference between a player wanting to test the FA waters and a player just wanting to play for another team cuz the one he plays for now sucks organization wise.



Lets see you wrong about Bell, wrong about Droughns, wrong about Portis, wrong about the Broncos and now wrong about Edge. Seems to me that what you "think" about football isn't worth much.


There is a cap in baseball that is why Minaya wouldn't go over 51 mil for Delgado. San Fran and Washington do NOT have the bad rep, or didn't anyway, that the Bengals have had organization wise. San Fran is slowly turning into another Bengals organization wise.
Oh yeah he is just saying he'd rather NOT play, during the prime of his career, than play for that team again. Get real man

A team like the Ben-gals as bad a reputation they have can't afford to "roll the dice."
Fine tag him he'd rather not play. You dont seem to understand what a drastic declaration that is from a player and how that reverberates around the league to other players and potential FA's. Do you honestly think the Bengals is on the top of ANY FA's list?


They can fix their needs in the draft? Not by having a weak scouting group....oh but wait they are changing They went from no scouts to now a couple.

Sigh, did even read the article? It clearly states that he wants to stay, but for a LONG TERM contract. He played THIS year for a 1 year, and he is saying he will sit out if they tag him. Not that he doesn't want to stay. So, just admit you are wrong and we can move this along.





Fine, name one on the team RIGHT NOW that is disgruntled and wants to leave.




thats because you are narrow minded. That is your problem, not the Bengals




Now we change the argument again. Will you just stop it. Trotter for the Eagles didn't want to try the market, he wanted a long term contract WITH Philly, but he wanted too much. Same for Pittsburgh and their FA's. This is the case with Rudi. Isn't that a sign for you that things have changed?





No, I was not wrong about Bell, droughns and Portis. Denver was a top rushing team, which WAS my argument. I never said one or the other was a STUD. My argument was and still is Denver can survive without Portis, and surprise, they did. Portis wasn't as stud like either, so I win there as well. YOU were the one who kept saying I was for one or the other. I just sat back and laughed at you.




No, there is not cap, you are once again wrong. There is a Penalty fee if you go over a certain number, but NO cap. Hell the Yankees are at 200 million salary for this year alone. NO, San Fran and Washington killed themselves going for the BIG FA or Player, and now are looking at Cap hell. Don't change the argument again.


No numbnuts. He is SAYING if you can READ that he doesn't want to be tagged, and will sit out if he is. HE WANTS A LONG TERM CONTRACT. Boy, sure wants to leave....



No, they can't afford to sabotage a team with ONE player, and not fix all the other mistakes. They are improving, but are no where near where ONE player makes a damn difference.


Hmm....funny, I can think of TWO OT's that have done this and liked it for the last two years. It is a business move. Alot of players have been tagged. IT ain't the end of the world. I don't see anyone ducking St. Louis or Seattle for it.




Hmmm...seems to me they have alot of reasons to believe they CAN. Including a young solid QB, Chad Johnson, Madiu(sp?) Williams(who was a canidate for rookie of the year), Ratliff, L.Johnson at LB, Steinbach, and alot more. Yes, with the right work, they can fix things in the draft.

With Rudi, it isn't a matter of wanting to leave the team, he just wants more than a slap in the face for a contract.

Give it time though, and he will be wanting out, especially if they hold to no paying him for more than one year.